#this is NOT me justifying all of fintan's actions

[castleofravens]

i want the council to be overthrown by the end of the series tbh. like it doesnt have to be part of the pre-existing groups (black swan or neverseen, i mean the black swan is boring now and sucking up to the council and the neverseen is........ i don't think they know what they're doing atp, fintan kinda... brought it together a bit better i think. or like more cohesively & theres... kind of a lack of stable/clear leadership or goals) but like what if a bunch of people (maybe fintan led... idk i want him to keep being relevant i think hes rlly interesting andlike... idk) (completely unrelated but i want to see him and marella have a similar relationship thatlike tiergan has w sophie and fitz)

like ik revolution isnt a likely thing that shannon will write for these books but i think it would be a good message?? for like kids ?? that like... not "you can't trust the government" but "always think critically about what the people in power are saying and why they're saying it"

(which is probably precisely why thats not likely to happen) (but a girl can dream...)

[bookwyrminspiration]

thoughts about evil like me from descendants being a fintan to keefe song? (in any context no matter if keefe is playing along or genuinely believes it. could also apply to alvar or sophie depending)

oo that's an interesting comparison!! of course, the whole Descendants franchise has a lot more of a "haha we're evil and it's fun I love being evil and being villainous," while the kotlc antagonists are more...I believe in this thing fervently and if that makes me evil, so what? There's less revelry in it, though they can enjoy the chaos they cause, if that makes.

that being said one of the lines that stood out the most was "Clawed my way to victory / Built my master plan" as that is essentially what Fintan tried to do. He wasn't entirely successful, but he was clawing his way through the elven world, creating a master plan behind the scenes to tear the place to shreds and built a world without the issues of its predecessor. There was very little he wouldn't give up for this vision of his, little he wouldn't sacrifice. He even sacrificed himself (the mind break) to keep his secrets so the world he envisioned would come to fruition. He was deliberate and bold and determined. And he was taunting/degrading people for their obedience, about how they were blinded by their compliance and that he was brave enough to break out of it. it makes sense that Keefe would also be the subject of that. If Keefe has a role in the future the Neverseen is building, he doesn't want Keefe to be like everyone else

for some reason this line also stands out to me: "Who wants an evil queen without a sack of sins?" You know how revolutions and change never come from those in power being comfortable? That's what that makes me think of. Fintan would have the mindset of "if you, the people who made this mess, are uncomfortable with what I'm doing then I'm doing something right." How can he be revolutionary if he's not breaking the mold? if he's not standing out and defying who he "should" be and making sure people know it? If he was trying to stick to the rules, he wouldn't get anywhere. There have been centuries prior to his rebellion where nothing happened, but now that the rules are being broken things are happening. Who wants a visionary who complies with his own discrimination? How can he even be a visionary if he's not doing anything new? And if the world is uncomfortable with the new, well that's just more proof that he's standing out and challenging the norms.

Also, the lines "And we're gonna be spiteful / Yes, spiteful / That's nice" seem to fit at least part of his motivation. Fintan doesn't like how pyrokinesis has been treated! Which is fair. His status was taken from him and he was branded talentless, and all pyrokinetics after him are scorned. Who wouldn't be spiteful about that kind of thing? That kind of unfair treatment warrants a reaction, and being spiteful about it is entirely understandable. I wouldn't be surprised if Fintan tried to pass on this perspective to people like Keefe, like "do you see what they've done? we can't tolerate it. they deserve our retribution," playing up the anger and the justice side of it because that's where he comes from! Doesn't justify his actions, but his motivation is understandable. Like you know what? We're not gonna let this one go, actually! All the things you've done? We don't forgive you!

Fintan's passionate enough about his cause that having Keefe under his wing would be a prime opportunity for him to start persuading him to think differently, to actually take a moment to think about what he's saying instead of discarding it all. I don't think the "haha be evil!!" part of the song applies to Fintan as much, but the parts woven throughout it definitely fit.

it's a fun way to look at them, so thank you for the suggestion!!

[bookwyrminspiration]

Hey! I don’t have much to go off with this at the moment because I just checked your masterpost and no, you don’t have anything about Fintan, so I will now remedy that by asking your thoughts on him! Also your thoughts on Fintan/Bronte, and what their ‘Long history’ together could be, pointed out by @fintan-pyren

Also thoughts on what he would have been like as a councillor, if there aren’t that many thoughts on the subject above, because i don’t think there’s much to go off with that one (Again, haven’t read the books, just rolling with what my girlfriend has told me)

-Heathen

I think I have one post about Fintan on my masterposts right now (which I need to update) and that's it, so I'm intrigued to see what quandaries this ask will bring!!

I don't think about Fintan often, but when I do I can't help but focus on the conviction he has. He is completely and utterly convinced of what he's doing, and every action he takes is to bring about his vision. He's not like Vespera or Gisela in the way they accomodate others, make decisions that aren't entirely what they want to create opportunities later. Vespera didn't want to work alongside Gisela, but she cooperated to an extent because doing so enabled her to get some of what she wanted and sabotage Gisela later (by not really giving a fight her all in Nightfall). They can wait, can bide their time, and be calculating. Fintan feels more unhinged, like he understands the future but instead of bidding his time and waiting for it, he tries to make the future exist now, trying to bring it to him instead of ensuring he'll be there to experience it. It's brash and very effective when it works, but it comes alongside huge risk and if it doesn't pay off then he's left scrambling.

He's the kind of character that would have really strict morals and values but no one can figure out what they are. He has a vision and everything he does is to bring it to fruition, but there's so much wrapped up in that we don't understand. He seems to be about the greater good, but using it to justify his personal desires, yet he doesn't fully realize that's what he's doing. I'll get to that more later.

I think Fintan and Bronte's "long history" is a very specific phrase that appeals to queer people, perhaps strengthened by the joke about historians often writing off queer relationships as friendships. So when we see the word history, we have another association that means romance. I personally don't mind Fintan/Bronte, the tension that can be found there based on a shared past and familiarity with each other. There's a lot of potential, but I don't think that's the kind of history Shannon meant when she wrote those lines. A long history could be a lot of things!!

But for those to whom the pairing appeals, excellent choice!! I love seeing the chaos and speculation, and it seems like you're enjoying creating it

And then Fintan as a councilor--this is where we bring back that greater good thing I was talking about. As a councilor, you're supposed to think of the good of the people as a whole, what's best for everyone, and make an impartial decision. You're supposed to be a protector of their world, so in that sense they're primed to think of the whole over the individual. We saw that he was good at this--he was a well-liked and respected person as far as we can tell, it was only when he became considered talentless that he resigned. He was following the rules, as you can't be on the council if you're considered talentless. He agreed with the decision to ban pyrokinesis, even though it negatively impacted him like that, because he was considering the good of the species.

So it sounds like prior to his revolutionary phase (current), he followed elven laws well--maybe not to a t, but he was good about doing what he was supposed to, protecting the people. From this we can infer that he might've had negative impacts on some people's lives the way the current council does, like voting to banish people for the sake of everyone else, following along with that greater good concept. But what he did specifically is entirely up to speculation based on very little evidence

But! He's not a councilor anymore, and he's certainly not following elven laws. Yet he still has echoes of that time evident in how he presents himself: helping the greater good. He's convinced himself that what he's doing is good for everyone, that the whole species and government needs and do over and that he's the person to bring it about. And yet a lot of his motives are entirely selfish despite his claims. Who would really benefit from what he's doing? Who benefits from him taking over the government and unbanning pyrokinesis? Primarily, him. He gets everything he wants, and while everyone else may experience benefits, none will as much as him. Marella's ability won't be banned, but at what cost?

There is merit to what he's trying to do, to be clear. He's not unfounded in his beliefs, but his conviction and morals and approach aren't as applicable to the elven world as a whole, which is where a lot of the conflict comes from. The Black Swan and the Neverseen are fighting for a lot of the same reasons, but their end goals and methods are different.

Fintan is definitely an interesting antagonist, so it's a shame he's been imprisoned. I mean, it's a good thing he can't hurt people anymore but also we loose the intrigue of his character. Either way, he's a fascinating topic!! There's a bunch more I could say about him, but this is getting long so I'll stop here for the moment.